Mike Huckabee's Interview with PM Netanyahu on Fox News

23/07/2011

יום כ"א תמוז תשע"א

Huckabee: Two months ago, Benjamin Netanyahu got a huge reception in Washington while speaking to a joint session of Congress. Israel's leader made his case for why any peace agreement between Israel and Palestinians should not include a return to the borders that existed before the 1967 war. But does he feel our full support?
Earlier this week I travelled to the Prime Minister's Residence in Jerusalem for a wide-ranging, exclusive interview.
Why does Israel matter to the typical American family? What difference does it make?

Netanyahu: I think most Americans see in the story of Israel a parable of the struggle of mankind, humanity, to lift itself up to a brighter future. This is a people – the people of Israel, the Jewish people, were left for dead really, thrown out of our land several thousand years ago, thrown into exile, into pogroms, massacre and so on, the Holocaust. We come back from the dead, rebuild our ancient life, our life in our ancient homeland, build a state, defend ourselves, build an enterprising economy. It sort of tells people there's hope, there's hope for a free people. With enough guts and with enough courage, there's hope for everyone. And I think Americans instantaneously identify with that.

They see Israel not merely as a sister democracy, but as one that struggles for this better future, a future of freedom that all Americans instantaneously understand and appreciate. I think that's the bond, it's the bond of value and hope, of courage and hope, of freedom and the future.

Huckabee: It's often said that Israel and the United States have not an organizational, but an organic relationship. Are there some ways in which you think that there are cultural, military, financial, political, historical connections and unique relationships that you see as you think about the relationship between the US and Israel.

Netanyahu: Well, you have… It’s very practical but also very idealistic: practical in the sense that we are you and you are us, and we view each other in the same values and cooperate that way. We built a hi-tech economy, a free enterprise economy, one that cherishes democracy. All these things are very sound and they also have practical implications because the West and the United States is under attack here. And the one reliable place is Israel. We've always been pro American and we'll always be pro American. Israel is the one country where you have wall-to-wall pro-Americanism. There’s no question about that, through changing governments, through changing presidents. It doesn’t make any difference. We’re there for you and we feel you’re there for us.

But at the same time there’s something deeper. Because America was a society built on an idea. That’s the city on the hill where this new birth of freedom that Lincoln talked about: the city on the hill. Well, you’re on that hill. And this is that city, it’s Jerusalem, so welcome to Jerusalem and I hope all your viewers come here too. If you haven’t been here, you should come here.

Huckabee: I would agree with that. I want to ask you about the incredible reaction that you had at the joint session at Congress and overall from the American people in your most recent US visit.

Were you even surprised at the extraordinary accolades that you got from Congress? I mean it was, I think, 29 standing ovations. I’ve never gotten anything like that, Mr. Prime Minister, so I was impressed.

Netanyahu: You should come to the Knesset.

Huckabee: I don’t think I would get that kind of reception.

Netanyahu: I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I was very gratified by it. I’m very heartened by it. I had an inkling of that because a day before that, my wife and I went for a walk in the Potomac Park. They actually let me out: my security is tough, you're security is tough but a little more understanding, even though I respect our guys because they really have a mission to protect the Prime Minister of Israel. They let me out. Now, we’re walking in the Potomac Park, and I’m going through the tremendous memorials you have there for Lincoln and Jefferson and Roosevelt and the Korean War memorials.

They're all very moving. But there are Americans there, and I noticed that as I was walking, quite a few of them recognized me and I saw their reaction. So in that sense, the Congressmen and Senators, as you well know, are representatives of the American people, and I felt that they represented something very broad. Not support for me personally, but support for Israel, for what it represents. I think that's very deep in the United States, and I think it's a very important element in our national well-being. The connection with America is of supreme importance to us.

Huckabee: July 26 there’s going to be a debate at the United Nations regarding Palestine, the possibility of an independent state. To a lot of us that seems a surprise. I want to ask, does this seem like a threatening move to Israel? To start watching the Arab League push for this and a September vote looming?

Netanyahu: I think the hope for peace is for a negotiated peace. It’s not going to be imposed by UN resolutions. The UN can decide anything. The UN can decide that the earth is flat. The UN can decide that the sun is flat and that the sun rotates around the Earth. It can decide anything, and they have. So they can decide anything they want. But what really decides the future is what happens here between us and between our neighbors, and to get peace between us and the Palestinians we need to negotiate the peace. So I think to the extent that resolutions are passed and that one-sided, anti-Israel resolutions are frontloaded in the UN, that actually pushes peace back, because it tells the Palestinians: you don't even have to try. You don't even have to negotiate.

You’ll always get the approval of a large number of countries, so you don’t really have to make the concessions that you have to make in order to make peace. Because typically the conversation is what are the concessions that Israel makes. To get peace you need concession from both sides, and a one-sided UN resolution would actually harden Palestinian positions and thereby push peace away. But at the end of the day, the beginning of a real day of peace, peace has to be negotiated.

Huckabee: Is the United States giving you assurances that they will do whatever it takes to block any actual action in September?

Netanyahu: Well, they can’t, I think, realistically block a General Assembly vote, that's just…

Huckabee: But in the Security Council?

Netanyahu: In the Security Council I think it’s very likely that the US will…

Huckabee: Likely, but not…
Netanyahu: I’m trying to be a diplomat. I think it…

Huckabee: You’re a good one.

Netanyahu: Well, I’ll be very surprised if something passes through the UN Security Council. And I’m not just speaking in a hypothetical way.

Huckabee: June 29, 2009: the UN Resolution that says that indigenous people have a right to exist, maintain and strengthen institutions, cultures and traditions. A lot of Israelis believe that could speak very well to Israel.

Netanyahu: We’re an indigenous people. We’ve been here only 4,000 years. That’s all. About the time of when Abraham came here, and the sons of Jacob. One of them was called Benjamin. I mean, they walked around Israel. It’s only been 3,800 years. We’re pretty indigenous, I’d say.

Huckabee: By that definition, Israel should be in a pretty good position. Is it a useful tool that Israel has, internationally and globally, to be able to point to the UN’s own rules and resolutions to say: “If you go by that definition, Israel has a right not only to exist, but to have some level of absolute security”?

Netanyahu: Look, I think the proof of this pudding is in the eating, and what they’re doing is, they’re not really recognizing these principles often when it comes to Israel. There’s , I call it the triple standard. There’s sort of an acceptable double standard in international relations. You have one standard for the dictatorships and one standard for the democracies. When it comes to Israel, there’s a triple standard because there’s still a third standard for the democracy called Israel. You never expect other democracies to accept what Israel has gone through. I mean, we’ve had – can you imagine another democracy with 12,000 rockets pounded on their cities and they’re asked to take special care, special caution, not to take action against the offending enemy’s rocketeers? I mean, that’s what Israel does.

Look, this is country half the size of Belgium. It’s the size of New Jersey. Can you imagine, your viewers in New Jersey get 12,000 rockets pounding New Jersey’s cities? Trenton, you know? Where was Frank Sinatra born?

Huckabee: Hoboken.

Netanyahu: Hoboken, you know? All rockets, thousands of rockets.

Huckabee: I’m glad I got that, by the way.

Netanyahu: How did you know that? Pretty good. No, I knew that. That was a trick question, but okay. So, all these cities are pummeled by rockets. What do you think the people of New Jersey would say? They’d say: “Do anything. Do everything”.

Huckabee: And it wouldn’t take 12,000 rockets, Mr. Prime Minister. I’ve been to Sderot. I’ve looked at that extraordinary cache of rockets that are stacked up behind the police station, and I’ve often said it wouldn’t take several thousand. It would only take one before the American people would be demanding something be done.

Netanyahu: Absolutely, but not only the American people. I say the same is true of any European country, and any other countries in the world. It’s true of Russia, true of China. So, Israel is held to this triple standard.

Huckabee: But why? Why is it so different? It seems very illogical that Israel would be asked to just sit back and take another few thousand rockets when no other nation on Earth, and especially the United States, would ever tolerate that.

Netanyahu: Well, because I think a lot of people say that they recognize Israel, they recognize Israel’s right to exist, but they don’t recognize Israel’s right to defend itself in order to exist, and that is where we begin to see this criticism of Israel. I think it’s unwarranted and unfair. Where does that come from? I can give you explanations; I can give the explanations of the numbers of Arab countries, although something paradoxical is happening because a lot of the Arab governments really want Israel to be able to defend itself against the rising tide of Islamic radicalism that threatens them too. I could give you explanations of oil, but I think there is a deeper explanation.

You know, I’ve often asked myself this question. Come on, it’s so obvious that Israel is being attacked by terrorists who are terrorizing its citizens, firing rockets into its cities, calling for its annihilation, tearing peace INto shreds. And yet Israel is the one that is accused when it takes action that any country would take to defend itself. And I think that this has partly to do also with some historical habit, you know? Because for thousands of years, the Jewish people didn’t have a state and we were absolutely helpless. We were the perfect victim; Jews were slaughtered; they were massacred; they were pitied; and we could do no wrong, because we couldn’t do anything. Now we have a state in which we act to defend ourselves, so that means you have a state; you have an army; you have to consider when to stop an attack on your borders; you take action. It’s messier. It was a cleaner, perfect world when the Jew was a perfect victim.

Well, we don’t want to be the perfect victim. We don’t want to be perfectly dead, so we take action and I think there’s a historical time in which nations that used to look at Jews in that way, as sort of the helpless object, have to adjust to the idea that we’re no different from them. We want to live just the way they do, and therefore we have to take actions to protect ourselves as they do. I think we’ll be living in a good world when the triple standard that applies to Israel is replaced by the double standard that applies to all other democracies.

[MISSING SECTION]

Huckabee: How close? Months, years?
Netanyahu: We know, because its probably stated that they have over four metric tons, which means about 4,500 kilos, of low-enriched uranium. Part of that they’re re-enriching at a higher rate that can make the stuff for nuclear weapons, and they’ve developed this massive program and the ballistic missiles to carry them. They haven’t developed these ballistic missiles that ultimately will reach the United States to carry medical isotopes, right? We know what they’re there for. Everybody knows. Fifteen years ago, when I first spoke about this, the danger of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons, I spoke actually before the US Congress. I’d just been elected for the first time as Prime Minister of Israel, and I said the greatest threat facing humanity was the arming of Iran with nuclear weapons, and a lot of eyebrows were raised. Now they weren’t raised.

Now there was great support, not only among the Senators and Congressmen, but world leaders understand that. I think the world understands that Iran is getting closer and closer and closer to nuclear weapons. I think this will have devastating consequences for everyone: first of all, for the Middle East and for the Arab regimes, but of course for us. I think that if Iran has nuclear weapons, then the Arab Spring would turn into an Iranian Winter. I’m convinced of that.

So much is at stake: the security of my country, the future of the Middle East, the control of the world’s oil supplies, and in the direction of where the Arab world goes. Does it go to democracy as we want? Or does it go to an Iranian-style dictatorship? A lot of that will be determined by the development of nuclear weapons by Iran. But the worst thing is: this is a terrorist regime, sworn to our annihilation, helping kill Americans, fostering terror worldwide. To have Iran with nuclear weapons means that the specter of nuclear terrorism becomes very, very real. And that’s really a place none of us want to get to.

Huckabee: It would be an immediate and direct threat to Israel.

Netanyahu: To you too.

Huckabee: It would be to the United States, but a lot of people in the United States don’t understand how it would be. I think you’ve been clear in the past that you have no intention of letting Iran get to that point, but would the US be supportive? Would they be a part of an operation to ensure that Iran does not get to that point?
Netanyahu: Well, you know President Obama has said that the US is determined to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons and I think that’s the right policy. There have been strong sanctions that the President led in the United Nations Security Council, and even stronger sanctions that were adopted by the US itself. These have taken a bite out of the Iranian economy, and that’s important. But I think that the only thing that will get Iran to actually stop the program is the combination of strong sanctions – even stronger ones – and the knowledge that if sanctions fail, then the international community is prepared to take credible military action. It’s the combination of the two that will make the sanctions work, and paradoxically, will make the military option unnecessary.

Huckabee: If Israel feels it has to act immediately and unilaterally, are you prepared to do that even without the blessing and support of other Middle Eastern neighbors and the US?

Netanyahu: I’ve said that Iran is a threat to everyone. It’s a threat to Israel and the Arab world and the United States and Europe, obviously, and to many others. I think this is an international threat that requires an international solution. The right solution of very strong sanctions backed up by the kind of clarity that says: look, we’re prepared; we’re determined to prevent you from getting nuclear weapons and we’ll take whatever action is necessary. That’s what President Obama is saying. I think that’s the right approach.

Huckabee: In the Middle East there’s been a lot of upheaval this year: in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Tunisia. Is Israel in a safer place or a more vulnerable place because of what has been perceived as this shake-up, something toward freedom, but it hasn’t turned out that way quite yet.

Netanyahu: You’re right, and it depends what will happen. We’ll be in a safer place if it moves towards genuine democracy. We’ll be in a less safe place if it moves towards an Iranian-style theocracy. Look at what happened in Lebanon. Lebanon five years ago, six years ago there was this Cedar Revolution, and was just… millions poured into the streets of Beirut. A million people actually. That’s like 20 million Egyptians. Huge numbers. And they were demonstrating for a free Lebanon – free, democratic, progressive Lebanon. Five years later, Hizbollah, Iran’s proxy, and Iran control Lebanon. That hope was dashed, and the question is where do the rest of the Arab countries go to? Where does Iran go to, a non-Arab country? I mean, it all started there. It didn’t start in Tunis; it started in Tehran when the Ayatollah regime stole the elections. They stole millions of votes and millions walked into the streets, and they were butchered very quickly and silenced.

There is a palpable yearning in the Arab world and in the Islamic world in the Middle East for this new beginning. I think most people, left to their own devices, they’d opt for a genuine democracy. But they’re not left to their own devices. The people with the guns and the people with the superior organization – they deprive them their freedoms as they did in Lebanon, as they did in Iran. We all would like to see the triumph of democracy. If democracy triumphs, we’ll have peace, because in a genuine democracy, the public will – most people don’t want their sons and their daughters to go to battlefields or to die from bombardments. They don’t want war. They don’t typically initiate wars, democracies. So if we have peace, if we have a genuine democracy, we’ll have genuine peace, but the jury is out where this thing is going. Let’s hope it goes towards the right direction and let’s work as best as we can to make it go in the right direction.

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